Topic: Books by Dan Margulis

[mdavis]

I'm surprised that no one has posted questions here.  There might be a couple of reasons.

Either Mike's Curvemeister fans have completely understood Dan's book, or no one bought the book, or no one knows enough to ask questions.

I'll criticize the section heading by suggesting that the LAB book is the 2nd book by Margulis that you should read, the first being "Professional Photoshop 4th Ed."  That's not to say that "LAB" isn't a good book, it's just that unless you read PE4 first, you're going to have some problems with the depth of material in "LAB".  Both are essential reading if you're serious about getting the most from color control of your images and seeing one of the main driving forces behind Mike's great Curvemeister plug in.

[Frits]

I'm surprised that no one has posted questions here.  There might be a couple of reasons.

Either Mike's Curvemeister fans have completely understood Dan's book, or no one bought the book, or no one knows enough to ask questions.

When you have read all the articles, you could have seen that 2 persons have such a book.
I have one, and the other person is a whoman named jodz.
I have Photoshop elements 4.0 and could not do everything written in the book.
Very pitty of course. But it is a nice book.
I have bought now "the hidden power of Photoshop elements 4.0", but I think I have trouble again.
Then my Photoshop elements is in dutch and some tools are written with english language, so it worked not all.
I must write richard Lynch how about that and what he cna do with that.
Do you have a LAB plugin for P.S. 40 , so I could workout the most things in the Book ?

Frits

[mdavis]

Although I no longer use Elements, I have the greatest respect for Richard Lynch who has added several "essential" plug ins to Elements to bring it up to near Photoshop level for photographers.

Of course Curvemeister does a lot of that, and I would consider it equally essential for Elements users.

[luminous]

I have started working with his book in an attempt to deepen my understand this LAB process... There was a discussion thread on a forum called Digital Grin at the end of last year that explored it pretty much in depth.

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=18203

I tried pasting the address above, not sure it will work.  Anyway, just interested to see if anyone would like to do a similar discussion here??

[Frits]

Luminous,

thanks for the address.
It is difficult enough for me to understand the whole thing.
But I go reading what is written there on  that working address.

Frits

[mdavis]

The book on LAB color by Margulis is a very advanced book on using the LAB color space and the use of channels.  I own many Photoshop books.  Dan Margulis' books are different.  They are not "cookbooks", nor are they designed to teach you how to use the tools in Photoshop.  They are theory books.  Dan's books attempt to teach you how to evaluate the colors, contrast and balance of an image and then use all 10 (or 13 using Curvemeister) channels available in Photoshop to most effectively adjust the image for color accuracy and/or the color balance that you want the viewer to see.

I would strongly recommend first reading Dan's book "Professional Photoshop, 4th Ed".  That book should be updated to 5th Ed. around the first of the year, I think.  It sets the basis for the more advanced use of LAB in the LAB book.  The LAB book would be much more difficult to understand if you have not read PE4.

If I were limited to a desert island with Photoshop, a camera and printer, PE4 would be the one book I would want with me.

[Frits]

The book on LAB color by Margulis is a very advanced book on using the LAB color space and the use of channels. 

Indeed. I by-ed it , in the hope I could better manipulate CurveMeister.
But halfway the book , I discovered that I could not done his examples, there he used Photoshop and I have only elements 4.0

I own many Photoshop books.  Dan Margulis' books are different.  They are not "cookbooks", nor are they designed to teach you how to use the tools in Photoshop.  They are theory books. 

I think you are right in this.

Dan's books attempt to teach you how to evaluate the colors, contrast and balance of an image and then use all 10 (or 13 using Curvemeister) channels available in Photoshop to most effectively adjust the image for color accuracy and/or the color balance that you want the viewer to see.

I don't have channels or curves in elements 4.0.
Only Curvemeister.....but .... it is very good.

I would strongly recommend first reading Dan's book "Professional Photoshop, 4th Ed".  That book should be updated to 5th Ed. around the first of the year, I think.  It sets the basis for the more advanced use of LAB in the LAB book.  The LAB book would be much more difficult to understand if you have not read PE4.

When I come in the bookshop this or next month, I look serious to that book.
But, I say it earlier , I have P.S.E. 4.0
How much is there written about Lab colours...?
And will that all result, in manipulate my photo's better than without this book.
Till now, I find Dan's book interesting but, it has not better my manipulation of Curvemeister.
I think, you must work often with Curvemeister and get experience to do it better.
Perhaps you have with Photoshop a better chance.

Thanks for the interesting information.

[mdavis]

Dan addresses color issues by looking at "known" values for "standard" colors and adjusting the image to bring those values in line with reality.  That is, by the way, the basis of "pinning" that we use in Curvemeister.

For example, Dan would sample a color value such as a tire and find it to be very slightly higher in blue than red and green.  We know that tires are neutral, so RGB values should be equal, therefore Dan would move the blue value down to equal the RG values.  He also usually works on the whole image, not using selections.  If the tire is too blue, then the entire image is too blue (unless there is some different lighting on different parts of the image).

In addition, Dan uses different color channels to accomplish different things.  He may see that an image needs more contrast.  Perhaps you can "S" curve the RGB, or play with the K channel in CMYK to bring out detail by sharpening.  He teaches you to consider all available channels when evaluating an image for changes.

Try to understand the ideas, even if you don't use Photoshop.  Most of the "moves" can be done in Elements if you find a way.

By the way, if you can get the Lynch plug ins to work, they will provide LAB and curves to Elements 4.

[Frits]

Dan addresses color issues by looking at "known" values for "standard" colors and adjusting the image to bring those values in line with reality.  That is, by the way, the basis of "pinning" that we use in Curvemeister.

For example, Dan would sample a color value such as a tire and find it to be very slightly higher in blue than red and green.  We know that tires are neutral, so RGB values should be equal, therefore Dan would move the blue value down to equal the RG values.  He also usually works on the whole image, not using selections.  If the tire is too blue, then the entire image is too blue (unless there is some different lighting on different parts of the image).

I understand, but I do something like that in Curvemeister.
Making the image from the Challenge page in the Gallery; picture 1948 was very difficult.
On that picture is also a tire, what I often used in experimenting to get the image good.
For myself , I try to convert what Dan said in the book to Curvemeister-handling.

Try to understand the ideas, even if you don't use Photoshop.  Most of the "moves" can be done in Elements if you find a way.

That is the problem. I will try how I can translate what I have read ( I read the book twice halve way) to PSE. 40 and Curvemeister.
To find the right way is the problem.

By the way, if you can get the Lynch plug ins to work, they will provide LAB and curves to Elements 4.

the lab did not work, because P.S.E. 4.0 is a dutch version. But fortunately the working and handling is written in the book.
So , I can do all the steps off LAB by hand.
But also I do not understand it.
Why should I do it on that way.
Curvemeister gives also LAB channels, what I can copy to P.S.E. 4.0 layers.
I can do then sharpening and perhaps other things, ( I am not so far yet), but the problem is how I can go back
to a color picture with the Lab components.
I have Curvemeister not so long, from March and Lynch HiddenPowers a couple of weeks.
The curves he mentioned in the book looks difficult to me.
And why, would I use that, because a easier way gives Curvemeister.
I prefer to work in Curvemeister.
Only when it is easier then I will use HiddenPowers , with it.
But I still in the faze, to understand what is written about all that.
the information is very big.
On the moment I  try to understand masking.
I have worked a month with Photoshop, and have the book Photoshop 6 from MC Clelland.
I fat book, there is a lot information in it, witch I can use with P.S.E. 4.0.
Studing now Masking, because Hidden Power has a lot of masking tools.
So, we go  on and on.
All get his attention.
My only goal is to better my photo's. No artistic thing or so.

Frits Egelie

[Jean Pierre]

Well, to maintain the thread,

With Margulis, one must get the mood I think.  Apart from his tendencie to lets us feel he is smart and that it is going to be easy, one has to (heurg...) ... work at it :-)
I am thinking of lab colors like when I paint  (losing control) in a way that color has no value.  Maybe it is a beginner habit.

A question comes up. What about all theese subtel color on a print? In sRGB?

[curvemeister]

Well, to maintain the thread,

With Margulis, one must get the mood I think.  Apart from his tendencie to lets us feel he is smart and that it is going to be easy, one has to (heurg...) ... work at it :-)
I am thinking of lab colors like when I paint  (losing control) in a way that color has no value.  Maybe it is a beginner habit.

A question comes up. What about all theese subtel color on a print? In sRGB?

The technical details are deceptively simple.  A few points added to a curve, and a paragraph of explanation may seem like nothing much was done.  It is important to use the images from the CD, and recreate what Dan describes.  Then the big test is applying that knowledge to your own images.

Subtle colors are an issue for Lab, which is a very coarse color space.  RGB is in the middle, with sRGB being the most subtle color space of all.  CMYK allows very fine adjustment of color, and was the original reason for writing the Curvemeister plugin.  I was very surprised that Lab became so important.

[BBushe]

well, I've just acquired a 2nd-hand copy of professional photoshop, and the LAB book will be next. It's my birthday soon so feel free to send me amazon vouchers...

I found after the curvemeister lessons I do most of my work in LAB, as it's so quick and I like the results. I really had little succes with wgcymk so maybe I should spend a bit more time looking at that.

[curvemeister]

well, I've just acquired a 2nd-hand copy of professional photoshop, and the LAB book will be next. It's my birthday soon so feel free to send me amazon vouchers...

I found after the curvemeister lessons I do most of my work in LAB, as it's so quick and I like the results. I really had little succes with wgcymk so maybe I should spend a bit more time looking at that.

For many, Lab is the "best and brightest" color space.  I find myself using it most of the time.

WgCMYK was added to Curvemeister to allow techniques from Dan's books to be used on RGB images, without losing any of the colors.  These techniques include adjusting the black generation, the unwanted color, and fine adjustment of skin tones and other relatively subtle colors.  WgCMYK will be included in the intermediate class.

Mike

[BBushe]

intermediate class?

[Barry Pettinger]

intermediate class? Sounds great 

     I have Dan,s recent book as well as an older copy. I read them both and I worked with both of them, by no means do I understand most of what I read. They is more information than most beginners or intermediate users can understand. Saying that, I enjoyed them ( with frustration) and learned from them. I do not find LAB the best to use on all photos, but my intent was to learn about colour. Mike's beginner class, of which I took twice, was also a great help.  That is why I was happy to see signs of an intermediate class.
  Barry