Topic: Work Flow issues

[Rick Moore]

I am stumbling in my ability to incorporate Curvemeister into my work-flow. I will continue the questions in this posting, starting with the simple questions first.

1. When I set the default black and white point numbers in Photoshop curve dialogue does Curvemeister obey those default numbers when I chose white and black points with Curvemeister instead of Photoshop curve layer?

2 .When using the CM wizard if I delete a black, white, neutral color point then I am forced to go back and recheck the already picked existing points. Is it possible to delete one of  the three color point samples and not have to go back through the menu and click again the remaining points in order to retain the existing corrections when using the wizard?

Regards,
Rick Moore Photographer
www.rickypics.com

[Greg Groess]

Hi Rick,

I believe that If you set black and white points in PS and bring the curved result into CM, it would use those points as the shadow and highlight.

At the risk of sounding snooty...Why not turn off the wizard I know it is faster but you seem to want to get it right over getting it fast...you can set the Shadow, Highlight, Neutral points at any time, not just when you use the wizard. 

If you are setting points in PS curves then you could just as well set them in CM.  If you right click on the image in the CM window the set S,H,N items are on the menu.  You can then "threshold" the Shadow and Highlight either from the point light pin you just created or you can use the threshold feature and adjust the curve accordingly.

http://www.curvemeister.com/wiki/index.php?title=Highlight_and_Shadow_Thresholding

or

http://www.curvemeister.com/wiki/index.php?title=Thresholding_Using_Highlight_and_Shadow_Points

Seems a bit redundent to set the black point and then try to reset it in CM...
Greg

[Rick Moore]

Hello Greg,

My question was not clear enough regarding obeying the default sets in Photoshop and I apologize for that.

I am preparing for inkjet printing on my wide format Epson. Black points need to be set at 16 and white points need setting at 242 for my profile in this particular example. My PS workspace is set for Adobe RGB, no black point compensation, and the image map for black and white points set to the above numbers and saved as the default blacks and whites. This is done in the curves dialogue window and saved. Now when I pick a black point the output is set to the 16 instead of 0 and white is set to 242 instead of 255.

I wish to use those numbers utilizing Curvemeister as the point picker. I do not pick the points with PS curves and only use CM.

When I am preparing for other use of images then I use RGB with black point compensation and change the default black and white points back to mapping at 0 and 255 respectively.

I am not setting the black and white points in PS curves and then opening CM. I use only CM at this stage of work flow.

When I change my workspaces, which happens numerous times a day, does Curvemeister stay with my desired, for that type of output, choices?


The reason I use the wizard is again somewhat convoluted.  What I like about the wizard is the ability to have simple slider control at the end to experiment quickly with overall brightness in RGB. Without the wizard I am using the direct curve and that can be awkward to make changes on the fly as easily at the available slider in the wizard. Switching back and forth between color spaces for comparisons is faster with the wizard than jumping to the menu bar and paying attention there. I also appreciate the dual slider for the LAB space in the wizard, again it makes it quicker to make general changes and watch for the results.

I realize that these reasons may not be valid for all folks but in my work I preparing for print random images everyday for different output. On the average I process 150+ images a day for print. If I add simply on minute to my prepare time I am adding almost 2.5 hours to my work day. That is where I am getting hurt.

Sorry for the length and parochial nature of my question. The good news is I have lots more work flow questions. {grin}

[Greg Groess]

You can set those points in CM...yes...they will stick once you set them...Click on the Wrench icon in the full CM window and check out the tabs...Shot1...You can change color space in CM without using the PS interface.  You can edit in LAB using CM and still output to another space sRGB or CMYK.

For instance...
Open the image in PS...open CM...Switch to LAB...Make your adjustments....Click the compare button...to see quickly if you like what was done...Apply the changes...CM will exit and the file is updated in PS....your changes are applied and the color space stays whatever the original input source was...In RGB out RGB with LAB adjustments.... You can even use CM as a smart filter so that you can go back to CM after further editing to tweak your Curves adjustments. 

These are great questions...keep asking...
Have you taken the CM101 class lately??  not all the answers are in there but we touch heavily on your questions so far...

Greg

[Rick Moore]

Howdy Greg,

Thanks for your prompt replies and suggestions. I have taken the CM101 class twice, the last time just this past summer. There was a wealth of information given and it seems that some of it has not stuck with me or at least is difficult for me to incorporate into my daily work flow. I trust you will tell me if I am imposing on your time and patience with my questions.

With your help I have found the answer to some of my original questions.

In regarding the ability of CM to use the user preset curve defaults for shadow and highlights, CM does not follow the photoshop settings. The settings must be set in the utilities window of CM. There is not a way to switch between different shadow and highlight settings without retyping into the utilities window of CM each time a change is needed. Since I use three different number combinations regularly it is something that I must check or change often.

I understand the ability to switch between color spaces without image damage in CM on the fly. It is one of the primary features that keeps me working within CM. Thank you for the reiteration of this ability of CM.

The following questions are presently still unresolved for me.


Moving away from the wizard to using the menu ribbon and/or right click choice for shadow/highlight/neutral points continues to raise the following issues for me.

  1.Once two or more of the s/h/n (shadow/highlight/neutral) are chosen deleting one of them removes the changes in the image curve that the others have made. It requires a re-clicking the still marked locations of the non deleted points to re-establish the corrections in CM. This happens both with the wizard and the individual pick method. Is this behavior correctable?

  2.Using the wizard I can keyboard navigate without looking at any menu choices.
Example:
             Open CM: single set keystroke
             Open Wizard: Cntrl/w
             Move to black point pick: enter/enter
             Click black point and move to white point pick: enter
             Click white point and move to neutral point pick: enter
             Now I am at pick color space and or compare color spaces on the fly
             The wizard has the advantage here in that there is a simple single slider for RGB lightness and         
              a dual slider for saturation and lightness. This keeps the work in a single window and slider
              use instead of tweaking the actual curve. The slider is easy and fast.
Not using the wizard requires paying attention to visual menus or mouse menus. Both accomplish the same thing but the wizard simplifies the keyboard shuffle and speeds up the choosing process. Am I missing something here?

  3.The smart filter use is something I have not played with yet and it has potential for me but it will add time and work steps to get my images print ready. Going back and redoing an image curve at the ready-to-print stage is not part of my time/work frame. Could you give me a suggestion of how/why/where the smart filter use would benefit me?

Thanks again and please let me know if these are inappropriate questions for this venue. I love the capabilities of the CM software and wish to incorporate it more fully in my daily work.

Let me digest these issues and I will be back with more. <grin>

[Greg Groess]

Howdy Greg,

Thanks for your prompt replies and suggestions. I have taken the CM101 class twice, the last time just this past summer. There was a wealth of information given and it seems that some of it has not stuck with me or at least is difficult for me to incorporate into my daily work flow. I trust you will tell me if I am imposing on your time and patience with my questions.

Not at all a bother..in fact these are great work flow questions that add to the ongoing off line discussion Mike and I are currently having regarding a advanced class and where to draw the lines around work flow.

With your help I have found the answer to some of my original questions.

In regarding the ability of CM to use the user preset curve defaults for shadow and highlights, CM does not follow the photoshop settings. The settings must be set in the utilities window of CM. There is not a way to switch between different shadow and highlight settings without retyping into the utilities window of CM each time a change is needed. Since I use three different number combinations regularly it is something that I must check or change often.

Hmmm I don't think there is a way..but you pose an interesting question for Mike and Version 4...This would be an enhancement for sure..

I understand the ability to switch between color spaces without image damage in CM on the fly. It is one of the primary features that keeps me working within CM. Thank you for the reiteration of this ability of CM.

The following questions are presently still unresolved for me.


Moving away from the wizard to using the menu ribbon and/or right click choice for shadow/highlight/neutral points continues to raise the following issues for me.

  1.Once two or more of the s/h/n (shadow/highlight/neutral) are chosen deleting one of them removes the changes in the image curve that the others have made. It requires a re-clicking the still marked locations of the non deleted points to re-establish the corrections in CM. This happens both with the wizard and the individual pick method. Is this behavior correctable?

This depends on the color space... RGB supports multiple neutrals.  Lab can only have one center to the A and B curves. Thus you can switch between them but not have 2 selected.  It is also one of the reasons Pins are more difficult in LAB.

  2.Using the wizard I can keyboard navigate without looking at any menu choices.
Example:
             Open CM: single set keystroke
             Open Wizard: Cntrl/w
             Move to black point pick: enter/enter
             Click black point and move to white point pick: enter
             Click white point and move to neutral point pick: enter
             Now I am at pick color space and or compare color spaces on the fly
             The wizard has the advantage here in that there is a simple single slider for RGB lightness and         
              a dual slider for saturation and lightness. This keeps the work in a single window and slider
              use instead of tweaking the actual curve. The slider is easy and fast.
Not using the wizard requires paying attention to visual menus or mouse menus. Both accomplish the same thing but the wizard simplifies the keyboard shuffle and speeds up the choosing process. Am I missing something here?

hmmm, I always approach this from user control..If you feel that you are in control keep going.  You can set up all the keystroke shortcuts you want in the customize menus.  see shots 3 and 4 attached...I seems more like a habit and comfort issue but maybe if you set additional shortcuts you can stay out of the main interface to do most of the work you want to do.

  3.The smart filter use is something I have not played with yet and it has potential for me but it will add time and work steps to get my images print ready. Going back and redoing an image curve at the ready-to-print stage is not part of my time/work frame. Could you give me a suggestion of how/why/where the smart filter use would benefit me?

Smart filter only takes as second to set up in PS CS3 it is not an option in PSE.  The benefit is that you do not have to save the curve file, you can re-open the curves layer using the CM interface during the edit work flow and make any changes that crop up.  It might take a few uses for you to get used to that work flow..I myself only use it on occasion. You also have to check off the scroll icon when in CM so that CM knows it is being used as a smart filter.  shot5.

The why would be anytime a subsequent change causes you to go back to CM to make an adjustment.

The how is by right clicking on a copy layer of the background and selecting "convert to smart object" (shot1) then after PS converts the layer you open CM as a filter on that layer.  When you apply the CM changes the program will return you to PS and the layers will look like shot 4

To re-open CM just double click on the Curvemeister 3 smart layer shown in Shot2.

Thanks again and please let me know if these are inappropriate questions for this venue. I love the capabilities of the CM software and wish to incorporate it more fully in my daily work.

Let me digest these issues and I will be back with more. <grin>

You are quite welcome...I think everyone benefits from the questions and hopefully the responses as well.  This is a very good place for these questions and I hope other will bring them out as well..

Greg

[Rick Moore]

Greetings Greg,

With your help I find I am changing my work pattern and most of it is for the better. Except for missing the wizard lightness RGB and LAB sliders I have almost broken my wizard habit. Thanks.

There is still a persistent issue that continues to be troublesome with me even with the help of your answers.
ISSUE:
The glitch comes in the s/h/n picking and what transpires when a point is deleted. The working color space chosen makes no variance in the noted behavior.
    When one point of each of the s/h/n are chosen and, say I made a mistake and there is no obvious neutral that helps the image and I delete the chosen neutral sample point, then the remaining s/h points remain visible on the image but the corrections that they created are eliminated from the view. The points need to be re-energized by clicking again on them in order to have the corrections displayed on the image.
    Take the above example and use only two points, the shadow and highlight. If one of the points is deleted after it has been applied or picked then the remaining point, although visible, has lost its corrected visualization on the image and that point needs to be re-clicked again.
    How do I delete a chosen point and have the other points remain as corrected.

    The communication issue I am sure is mine;  I am sorry that I have to ask this point again.

[derekfountain]

    When one point of each of the s/h/n are chosen and, say I made a mistake and there is no obvious neutral that helps the image and I delete the chosen neutral sample point, then the remaining s/h points remain visible on the image but the corrections that they created are eliminated from the view. The points need to be re-energized by clicking again on them in order to have the corrections displayed on the image.
    Take the above example and use only two points, the shadow and highlight. If one of the points is deleted after it has been applied or picked then the remaining point, although visible, has lost its corrected visualization on the image and that point needs to be re-clicked again.

CM3 has done that for as long as I can remember. I've always considered it a bug, but was never sure. Maybe someone should tell Mike about it and see what he says....

[Greg Groess]

Rick,

I agree with Derek..Post this particular issue to the Bugs topic and I know Mike is reading along so he will probably chime in as well..

Glad the work flow changes are not to difficult.  Keep asking as they come up and I'll do what I can to help or others sure can add to this as well...Thanks Derek...

Greg

[Rick Moore]

Thank you Derek and Greg for your help in understanding the workings of the CM software. If it is a bug maybe it will be addressed but at least I now know that it is an issue that needs to be worked around and not tackled head on.

Since I would rather use a keyboard than a mouse when working through software steps why are not the standard photoshop keyboard commands utilized when in Curvemeister? A simple example would be the image zoom command: in photoshop it is ctrl+= but when in CM it is ctrl+alt+=. I will try to reset the key commands as Greg has mentioned in an earlier post and see if that helps.

Allow me a day or two to finish the next couple hundred image corrections using my somewhat now convoluted work flow with CM. I will be back with some more of my stumbling points fresh on my mind.

Thanks again for the help.

[Greg Groess]

Rick,
In thinking about your work flow The volume of images is what I keep coming back to...

Are these images all shot under similar conditions?  if yes you could try this...

Open your 1st image and make the corrections you need. get everything done in CM that you would do to every image and then save the curve as an ACV file to the desktop.

Apply the changes and move on to the next image. 

Open CM on the second image and press the "Load" button.  This will open the load dialog and you can select the ACV file from the desktop. Tweak the specific image and apply your changes.

Rinse repeat...on as many images as you have shot under the same conditions or lighting.  If you have a major change your saved ACV cannot handle then create a new one and start using that one until it again starts to fail you. 

This would get you along faster I think overall...

Another options would be to just use the Ctrl-F keystroke in PS to apply the last filter.  If CM is that filter the last saved curve is applied to the current image via CM.

Still thinking....
Greg

[Rick Moore]

Hello Greg,

I have been using saved curve files when there is the opportunity for using the same curve levels. It works great with images taken in my studio and sometimes helps with same area shots like church interiors at weddings or corporate event work.

What I have not done is set up a photoshop batch action to run the saved curve file. Will I be able to do that with the saved CM files?

My goal is to make better prints faster. Maybe it is not possible.<grin>

[Greg Groess]

probably not because of the "load file" dialog....

If Mike is reading this he might have some ideas for more automation...

Greg

[Rick Moore]

Hello Greg,

I realize that I am attempting to use CM's abilities to help replace other software that already does some of the things I need. I own other software and use it but where CM shines is its plug-in and co-ordination with PhotoShop. It saves having multiple image editing software open and the transfer time between products. This preface is to let you know that if I am asking something that should be done in another program please inform me of that. "It will not work" is an acceptable answer.

Yesterday, I had 172 images to go from both nef and jpgs to final print out. I did convert Nikon nef to tiff using NikonCapture. From there they went to PS for work along with the jpg images for final processing. I use PS for preparing for the RIP cause I am fast and efficient with it.

My biggest slowdown and frustration yesterday in CM was the guessing wrong or taking the time to attempt to find a better white or neutral point. The deleting a point and then having to click and choose again the remaining choices drove me batty. It got to the point that I stopped experimenting to see if there was a better point available. I must admit in comparison that NikonCapture is clunky when it comes to changing points also. The visual distraction of having to read menu items again, mouse and click, then finally verify that the choice is best really slows down a process.

Another point:

Is there a keyboard command to use the [compare] function that toggles between the before and present views in CM? Having to move the mouse to the button and do the compare then back to work is both visually and mentally distracting.

[Greg Groess]

For the compare there is not one listed in the menu's.  I just set mine to the "end" key  It toggles the compare on and off.  It does not function the same as the compare button but it keeps your hand on the keyboard.

I feel your pain on the high volume photo edits..I did 63 images last night myself for a slide show.  I have another 50+ tonight.  I really did think of you...

As for the NEF conversion could you use the automate function of PS to convert to TIFF.  It can batch process those files and you could have a coke while you wait for them to finish.  You can use ACR with the settings zeroed out if you do not want changes.  That is what I do with my larger jobs.  I use the "automate" to convert images from NEF and stamp the file name into the lower right corner of the image for proofs.

Instead of deleting the neutral, just click on it and drag it to the new location.  Same with the shadow and highlights, they are movable.  Personally, I use the side threshold with the entire image in the window so I can see the first white specks and then I just back off a bit.  It's pretty fast and I do not have to hunt for the highlight it just pops out at me.  Same for the shadow...Just grab the right and left edges of the composite curve in RGB or the L channel in LAB and slide the threshold out into the curve. 

Let's keep talking and see what comes out of this...I think many people are getting something here...
Greg